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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
 Posted - 01/29/2010 : 19:11:58
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[quote]Originally posted by thogey
I didn't see the original post but, I can figure what happened. My code of conduct is this.
a. If the seller sets the price, and it's a steal and you buy. O.K. (unless the seller is obviously incompetent i.e. little kid, confused old lady)
b. If the seller is depending on your expertise to set the price, and you lowball (read: lie to) the seller that is not OK.
I might add that I wouldn't buy if I thought it was stolen. |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 19:28:49
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| Yes of course. Receiving stolen property is unethical and a crime, usually punisable with prison time. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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toomuchcopper
Penny Collector Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 19:29:03
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what if the price of silver dropped to 8.00 the next day after buying at the steal price (which I dint see the original post)
would it then be a problem? Would the seller then be the theif.....
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visit www.crazycoinguy.com
for information on how to sort, what to sort, and sorting equipment. We also sell copper pennies in bulk, and other coins. |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 21:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by toomuchcopper
what if the price of silver dropped to 8.00 the next day after buying at the steal price (which I dint see the original post)
would it then be a problem? Would the seller then be the theif.....
Since Silver has a maximum amount it can move per day of less than $8 this is an impossible scenario.
Plus the fact that anyone on this site is a WELL INFORMED party and therefore exempted from the equation of "stealing". Well, unless there is actual theft involved, of course!
The bottom line is:
- If one party is WELL INFORMED and the other isn't, then a sign of CHARACTER by the "well informed" party is to help the other along to ensure a fair purchase. If you don't do that, that is a sign of character as well, but not a good sign! |
Edited by - barrytrot on 01/29/2010 21:19:13 |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 21:29:54
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Zyll: If I saw saw someone being taken, I'd have to speak up. Depends on taken. Taken for a hundred? probably not. I read that article when it was fresh, sounds like that lady was being taken for possibly thousands. Bad.
I like Thogey's comments.
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 21:56:55
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quote:
Originally posted by natsb88
Shouldn't have deleted the original post...it's important to be accountable for what you say. Now nobody can see the full story. Even if it made you look bad, it's clear that now you have learned from the experience, and other could learn from it as well.
100% agree with Nate here. Makes people even more leary of you when you try to cover up what you did...
Not trying to beat you up, but just saying.... |
Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 22:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by IdahoCopper
Thank you for your advice.
I paid $3.38 per oz for Ag today and got 7.7oz.
That took a lot of guts. (to un-redact that)
I respect that. Live and learn. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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The Finest
Penny Sorter Member
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 00:34:20
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| Interesting topic for sure. My opininon is dont ask dont tell for situations like this. Meaning I wouldnt brag about a deal like this nor would I question someone who made the purchase. I also think thogey has some great advice. |
A fool and his money are soon parted. I would pay someone a lot of money to explain that to me.-Homer Simpson |
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IdahoCopper
Penny Pincher Member
125 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 06:20:14
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The seller told me she was thrilled to get $700 for $350 face in silver coin a few years ago.
So I offered her 2x face for:
1 1942 nickel, no Ag
5 war nickels @ 35%Ag
2 dimes @ 90%
8 quarters @ 90%
12 halves @ 90%
10 halves @ 40%
$13.50 face value
She looked thrilled when I gave her the $26.
A good trade is when both sides leave the deal happy.
She did not ask me to appraise her coins.
She did accept my offer when she could have negotiated a better price.
She was a teller and cashier for many years, picking interesting coins from circulation. I call that competent.
Most of what she had were wheats and bicentenials. I passed on those and cherry-picked the silver.
I appreciate everyone's comments here on the ethics of this business. It is a business, and all of us have a profit motive.
After I finished that deal I went to the bank and picked up the $500 box of halves I had ordered. There was zero Ag in that. |
See - http://IdahoCopper.com
and:
http://beefjerky.com |
Edited by - IdahoCopper on 01/30/2010 06:32:22 |
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Zyll
Penny Pincher Member
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 07:28:17
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| I do agree that if the seller is asking way under market value, it is a steal. Just make sure to ask why they're selling it...the steal could be stolen property. |
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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 08:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by fb101
Zyll: If I saw saw someone being taken, I'd have to speak up. Depends on taken.
O.K. I was in a coin shop and watched a transaction where I believe that the person was taken. Should I have spoken up? I would have given the person half again what the owner gave her, and still been able to resell at his prices and made a fair gross profit.
I don't that he took advantage of her. She collected the coins over a number of years and had plenty of opportunity to appraise it. She also could have refused his offer. I would have offered more. Remember she took all of that in at face value. Was whe obligated to tell her customers that they could get more for the money elsewhere? Does anyone here who works at a store refuse an old coin from a customer? When we see silver in the tellers tray or the till at a store, do we offer to pay more for it? |
Edited by - knibloe on 01/30/2010 08:28:18 |
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NDFARMER
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1197 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 08:48:28
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| I have been at my local coin shop many time when someone will bring in some coins and ask what the shop will pay for them. I am amazed at the low ball amount this guy tells them. And most of the time they sell their coins to him. But if I were to give them a bid like that they wouldn't think about selling to me. Something about selling to a "coin dealer" that makes people think that if the "dealer" say that's what a coin is worth then it must be true. You don't know how many times I have been standing there biting my tongue just wanting to tell the person I'll give you $100.00 for those coins rather than the $80.00 the dealer offered them and then as soon as they walk out of the store he would sell them to me for $120.00. I understand he is running a business and has to make money too but sometimes I wonder how ethical some of the dealers are also. |
COPPER - the "poormans" precious metal!!!
SELLING - $100.00 face copper shipped to you for $189.00 machine rolled or bagged - PM me if your interested. |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 09:05:16
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The thing about the coin dealer senerio is that client, if in the shop you can plainly see the resale prices.
Also the dealer by definition is there to buy low and sell high. Plus the dealer should demand a premium for being a standing cash buyer.
In your scenario the dealer buy's for 80 and sells for 120 a, 50 percent mark-up.
And yes like you I love to get things wholesale.
For most brick and morter retail endevours 50% is not necessarily raping the customer.
This is a great discussion. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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Edited by - thogey on 01/30/2010 09:28:50 |
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garnede
Penny Collector Member
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 12:41:24
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| When I worked in retail furniture we marked the price up by 265%. It is not a rip off usually, The dealer has to buy on the faith that they will sell and does not know how long he will have to sit on them till they sell or how much the price will change by the time they finally do sell. All that said I wish I could buy for 1/3 under spot price. |
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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 15:47:41
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You are right, this is a good discussion.
At a coin shop, you cannot see what the prices are. There are so many coins, dates, mint marks, varieties and grades that someone uneducated would not be able to come close. Dealers need to make money and cover their overhead. That is for them to decide how much and us to judge if their offers are fair.
People part with their precious metals ever day for a pittance. I detest paying full price, because I know that somewhere out there are lots of people willing to sell for a pittance and I could buy it somewhere in between. A price where they would be happy and I would be able to live with myself.
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 16:44:06
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I look at this way.
Remember the old saying,
Buyer beware...
Well it should also be said that
the seller should also be aware.
It is not my duty to inform and educate them.
Best answer so far...
"A good trade is when both sides leave the deal happy."
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Corsair
Penny Hoarding Member
811 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 17:09:46
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| I think it's absolutely fair. The seller was pleased, and was not forced to sell. It is her own responsibility to research and come up with a better asking price. |
So long, Realcent 1. Come visit us at Realcent.org! |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 19:08:18
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Uh Burger King states that it costs $1.05 to make a double cheeseburger! Franchisees don't like it and complain but by default have to abide. Should I feel morally responsible and pay more? I don't want to take advantage of anyone! Give me break here!
As long as there is no threats and both parties are competent then the mutually agreed on price is fair!
Another example:
An ad on craigslist states 2003 Dodge Clubcab must sell for financial reasons first $2300 cash take it! Now even though the Blue Book well exceeds the asking price and the owner knows this are both parties not happy with the transaction? Should a prospective buyer show up and say sir I just can't morally only give you the $2300 the blue book is $6,500 here ya go!
I love this thread! |
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 19:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
An ad on craigslist states 2003 Dodge Clubcab must sell for financial reasons first $2300 cash take it! Now even though the Blue Book well exceeds the asking price and the owner knows this are both parties not happy with the transaction? Should a prospective buyer show up and say sir I just can't morally only give you the $2300 the blue book is $6,500 here ya go!
Something that has a "thin market" like cars isn't the same as a commodity like silver where you can move any amount at close to "real value" in moments.
Here is what someone with integrity would do though to answer your question:
- Show up, say "do you realize the blue book is $6,500?" Likely, in this case they will say, "yes, but the dealer only offered me $2,200 so I just want $2,300 to get done with it."
Integrity means being honest and forthright with people. That may still results in a great deal as in the fictitious case of the car mentioned here. |
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cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 19:59:41
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My response was in reference to this thread and also of business as a whole between two parties.
If both parties are competent enough to be physically and mentally capable of due diligence to research whatever the product may be and come to agreeable terms I believe there is no harm nor foul.
It is neither parties responsibility to educate one another as to a "real value".
Ever watch antique road show? How many time have you seen someone joyful over finding a well valued item for pennies on the dollar? Did the host then chastise them for not properly informing the original owner? Value is in the eye of the beholder whatever some ticker or index states!
In this case the contents of the original holder were well known. (The Coins) How hard is it to type into google "what is the value of my coins" They would not even be trying to sell them if they did not know they had above face value. They would just take them to the bank if they were that naive.
I don't believe the man did anything wrong! He in my opinion made a great deal! |
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 20:18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
I don't believe the man did anything wrong! He in my opinion made a great deal!
This is the crux of any discussion of this type: "opinion". Which is as varied as the stars in the sky :)
I will say this: If you believe you are doing right, then you are way ahead of the game :) There are MANY that know they are doing wrong and still do it! Those are the scoundrels!
I'm sure not everyone on this forum I've dealt with shares my tight view of ethical behavior but everyone I've dealt with has been extremely fair and I believe has tried to do what they think is right! That's why I've done a lot of trades here and will do a good many more in the future!
Thanks to everyone here that I've dealt with! You have definitely done right by me and I appreciate it! |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 20:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by thogey
I didn't see the original post but, I can figure what happened. My code of conduct is this.
a. If the seller sets the price, and it's a steal and you buy. O.K. (unless the seller is obviously incompetent i.e. little kid, confused old lady)
b. If the seller is depending on your expertise to set the price, and you lowball (read: lie to) the seller that is not OK.
I think my personal rules of trade conduct apply for these examples.
I've yet to rely on these and screwed myself of someone else.
Yes they're are gray areas. That's why this discussion is so valuable. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 20:41:25
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There is a HUGE differnce between The seller saying I want X for my item and the seller saying how much will you give me for my item.
If a person says I will sell you item X for $10 even though you know its worth $100 than there is nothing wrong with that. The seller set the price and is happy with the results.
If a person asks how much you will give for item X and you say $10 when its really worth $100 than I think morally that is wrong. Especially when its something as liquid as a commodity. If its an item you have to sit on and don't know when you will be able to move it than yes its better to have a bigger spread, but still have a FAIR offer! In situations when the seller asks I don't belive you should take advantage of them.
For example: I am an active buyer of coin collections. This past summer I was referred to this little old lady who's husband had just past away and she wanted to get rid of his collection. She had a compelte collection of mercury dimes (even tho 42 over 41), complete collection of what pennies (minus the 55 DD and the 22 No D) and an almost complete collection of Morgan dollars (missing 8 coins). She also had a bunch of commerative stuff as well as mint sets and other items. She had NO idea what anything was worth. She told me she heard wheat pennies were worth a couple cents and was hoping she could get that for them. She was SHOCKED when I told her 09 S VDB was worth over $900 and her 1914 D and 1931 S were worth quite a bit of money. She than almost fainted when I told her how much some of her CC and other morgans were worth. I could have made tens of thousands of dollars off of this lady by telling her she didn't have anything of value. Instead I gave her fair prices for everything and made my little cut for my time.
Yes, I do belive Buyer Beware is something that should be praticed....but theres a point where it becomes immoral in my book.
Just my thoughts...
P.S This has nothing to do with the creater of this thread. Just commenting on the topic.
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Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 20:44:56
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Highroller,
Do you agree then with my rules? It seems so. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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Ethics Discussion - - was "redacted"
Forum Locked
