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nokozan
Penny Sorter Member
35 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:13:39
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I had an thought about these machines a long time ago and thought it would be interesting to talk about. I might be wrong on this but as I see it once you elongate a penny its no longer considered us tender/currency. If you are short 3 cent on your purchase you cant throw in some elongated cents to make it even the cashier will not accept them. what is the new definition to this new elongated penny? since it is now no longer considered us tender do the same us tender laws still apply to this piece of smashed copper? If the elongated penny is no longer under the legal laws of tender then you could do whatever you wanted to that elongated penny with no repercussions. they have these elongated penny machines for sale to people and you can customize your own design or just mash it into an elongated blank. now lets up the scale on this, lets say you buy one of these machines and you crank out 2500 elongated blanks in your garage. you now have 2500 pieces of scrap elongated copper blank disks they are no longer legal tender, could you argue the melt ban on us tender does not apply to these elongated blanks as they are not us tender anymore.
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Dalmatian929
New Member
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:28:11
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| clever. you should go to law school. |
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Zyll
Penny Pincher Member
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:46:40
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I have seen an article on the EC discussion forums concerning legality. It's legal "as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins." So your idea would definitely lose in court.
The quote from [You must be logged in to see this link.]:
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Is it legal?
The United States Codes under Title 18, Chapter 17, and Section 331, "prohibits the mutilation, diminution and falsification of United States coinage." However, this statute does not prohibit the mutiliation of coins if done without fraudulent intent or use. In other words, YES, it's LEGAL!
From the Department of the Treasury, 31 CFR Part 82, Prohibition on the Exportation, Melting, or Treatment of 5-Cent and One-Cent Coins:
82.2 (1) The exportation in any one shipment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins having an aggregate face value of not more than $100 that are to be legitimately used as money or for numismatic purposes.
82.2 (2) (b) The prohibition contained in Sec. 82.1 against the treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to the treatment of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins.
In other words, as long as elongated coins are used for legitimate numismatic purposes, the prohibition on treating coins (elongating them) does not apply. Collecting, trading and selling elongated coins are legitimate numismatic purposes. No more than 10,000 coins ($100 face value on pennies, 2,000 nickels is $100 face value) may be shipped at one time, assuming they are US coins. Additional protections come in under section 82.2 (2) (b) because novelty, educational, amusement, jewelry and similar purposes apply as well. There cannot be a sole purpose of profiting from the metal content, but since the elongation of the coin is the primary issue whereby the coin may gain additional numismatic value, this won't apply.
In other words, it's still legal!
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nokozan
Penny Sorter Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 16:54:53
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"as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins"
the key word here seems to be "profit".
In order to understand the correct application of the statute in question, we must first define the terms used in connection with this point of law. As will be shown, many terms used today do not, in their legal context, mean what we assume they mean, thus resulting in the misapplication of statutes in the instant case
people really need to understand the laws and what they mean so we can then asses how they are used. ok this a good argument for the law purposes for example lets take law of its illegal to drive a vehicle without a drivers licensee. lets look at the word "driver" the true meaning of the word driver for this law means to gain "profit" on to make a means of profit by using the roads. In other words, if you are not using the highways for profit, you cannot be required to have a driver's license. a lot of police officers don't know this.
the cops are trained to use wording for you admit guilt as anything you say can be used against you in court of law. law term "Motor vehicle" means every description or other contrivance propelled or drawn by mechanical power and used for commercial purposes on the highways in the transportation of passengers, or passengers and property.
the cops asks do you know how fast you were "driving" this "Motor vehicle"? if you say no you admit to "driving" a "Motor vehicle" with no knowledge of how fast you were going. if you say im not driving a motor vehicle im just behind the wheel of an "Automobile", then you do not admit to any profit taking thus not under any jurisdiction definition of driver which would require a "drivers licencee". by law an automobile is private property in use for private purposes, while a motor vehicle is a machine which may be used upon the highways for trade, commerce, or hire.
You must be logged in to see this link.
the same argument could be used to dissect the law of gaining profit as getting the value of a metal based on a face value at 1 cent do to inflation its actually worth 2.5 cents is a false use of the word profit and value by definition. your not making a profit from the value of cents your getting back the value of metal in the form of something representing the actual value. not to be gaining profit but getting back the whole value of the metal. if you sue someone in court for property damage you can only get the old depreciated value of the item damaged never value of the same thing in a new condition you can only be made whole never above what you started. the value of the 1 cent has been depreciated do to inflation but the value of copper has not. to get back the value of the copper from befor it was depreciated is to become whole again.
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Edited by - nokozan on 01/28/2010 17:05:58 |
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toomuchcopper
Penny Collector Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 17:43:40
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| splitting hairs... |
visit www.crazycoinguy.com
for information on how to sort, what to sort, and sorting equipment. We also sell copper pennies in bulk, and other coins. |
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pennywise
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 19:39:30
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| Hmm, and if I superglued 1000 pennies to each other, stores would no longer accept that big block of metal either, and I'd have no other choice than to just melt it all down as scrap. I don't think so!!! They would be all over that like an all you can eat seafood buffet. |
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giddyup99
Penny Pincher Member
USA
154 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 21:05:46
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More trouble than its worth. Why even risk it? There is plenty of pipe and wire around to melt down if a guy wanted to melt some copper. I'm in no hurry to melt down my coins; be it silver or copper.
I can't believe anyone successfully argued that a "driver" is not really a driver unless he is driving for profit. I can't wait until I get stopped speeding or something so I can try it out. I'm thinking I'd rather just pay the fine. Quite frankly, I'm a little concerned that people even think this way. Please...anyone reading this without a drivers license; still go through the appropriate channels and obtain a legal license to operate a vehicle on the same roads us sane (for the most part) folk drive on. If they took away your license...it was most likely for very good reason; in this case please have a legal driver move you around.
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Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. |
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 21:46:09
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| Good idea but it won't work. They still are legal tender. They are considered "mutilated" pennies. A store has the right to accept or not accept any form of currency that they want. |
Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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enlogated penny machines.
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