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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
29 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2009 : 23:25:54
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When I had tendinitis in my knee, I saw four different doctors. They gave me four different diagnoses. One of them (who made an incorrect diagnosis) gave me a treatment that made the problem worse.
Another one, who came up with an absolutely crazy diagnosis, became angry when I asked him to explain why he thought I had bruised cartilage. He just raised his voice and repeated his conclusion, which is what people normally do when they can't back up their arguments. He then passed me a very expensive non-steroidal anti-inflammatory prescription, which cost $120. (It was basically a sexy form of ibuprofen.) Then he gave me a coupon from the manufacturer... wonder if he gets kickbacks?
After that experience I started distrusting doctors. A while later I wanted some routine bloodwork done (cholesterol, blood profile, iron). She wouldn't do the iron because the insurance company (her customer) wouldn't allow it so I said I would pay for the test out of pocket, and I'm glad I did. The test showed way too much iron in my blood, which can lead to liver and other severe problems, so she ordered a retest plus a liver test. The second test was also way too high, but that my liver was fine (not YET damaged). Inexplicably she didn't want to do any further investigation. She didn't even try to address the high iron in my blood, which she already stated would eventually lead to liver failure.
Doctors don't deserve the unquestioning respect they receive. A lot of them (not all) are arrogant and can't accept reality when they don't know the answer to a problem, so they invent phantom diagnoses that they can't explain when asked. These doctors (not all) would rather hurt the patient than admit they don't know something.
My father is on the board of directors at a hospital. When he and I talked about me seeing four doctors and their behavior, he said that he's seen over the years that new doctors do an excellent job, they care about their patients, and can be trusted to do the right thing. Then later they become cynical and should be avoided for your own good.
It's too bad we have this ... "system" here. It's clearly broken. When I was in France and badly sick, I remember friends and coworkers urging me to go to the hospital. I told them about my experiences in the US, and they were shocked. In France, going to the doctor means you get better.
I don't know if public healthcare would make American doctors more competent... probably not. The system is too corrupt and people here have too little control over the government to make it function.
At the end of the day, the American healthcare system I feel most confident about is as follows: good nutrition, good hygiene, good sleep, good friends, good attitude, physical activity, and intelligent choices (for example don't win a Darwin award by making youtube videos of yourself standing on a running motorcycle). |
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Country
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3121 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 07:55:24
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It's a different world today. If 45% of the doctors want to quit, let them. They will be replaced by opportunistic doctors from abroad who would gladly have their job and take it for far lower compensation. When you go to a hospital, you will see the many doctors and nurses that have been hired from foreign lands.
No professional should be venerated; you've got to do the research yourself. I'm not saying you've got to become a doctor, but you have to have control of the focus of your own healthcare. It's sort of like investing in that you've got to monitor your investments yourself rather than handing over your assets to a financial advisor who is looking out for their own interests.
I think it's important to find a doctor who will work with you. If they won't, it's time to find another doctor.
Insurance companies, who are focused on profit, do get in the way to deny coverage. However, when you have insurance you do get a discount from providers on the medical cost. Without insurance, you pay FULL price.
It's too bad we have this ... "system" here. It's clearly broken. When I was in France and badly sick, I remember friends and coworkers urging me to go to the hospital. I told them about my experiences in the US, and they were shocked. In France, going to the doctor means you get better.
I agree. It's time for a radical change in the American healthcare system. Too many Americans are finding that out the hard way! |
---> Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt
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Edited by - Country on 09/27/2009 08:13:01 |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 10:20:16
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Well, I convinced in government controled healthcare. Where do I send the weekly checks....
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 14:01:35
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I will forever object to the notions of putting age descrimination into law and letting a gov't panel decide who lives and dies and when. This is not new, these ideas were birthed almost 100 years ago in another place, and there are many who still believe in those ideals today. If anybody objects that corporations are corrupt and evil, then show me that the leaders they chose to take charge of those things are not corrupt and not evil or else admit their hypocrisy. This gov't is now and has been throughout my entire lifetime unfathomably corrupt and from their glass house there is no room for throwing stones at corporations.
Perhaps I'm the only one who has ever heard of "out of the frying pan and into the fire"
It's getting damn warm around here folks.
When I go to the mall or grocery store now, I see thousands of old people walking around living and enjoying life to some extent. Fast forward ten years and those numbers will be pared down. Many will be dead, denied care they could get right now. Many will be sitting in their houses unable to leave, and more getting around in wheelchair because they cannot get the knee surgery that would give them mobility. This is done in the name of "caring" - Bah! that's either BS or pure stupidity. Caring means about all, or it means about none.
Caring only for those chosen to be cared about is playing God. The last time I looked, only He has the right to choose who lives and dies and when. |
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Edited by - fb101 on 09/27/2009 18:45:29 |
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Country
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3121 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 15:29:23
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quote:
Originally posted by fb101
This gov't is now and has been throughout my entire lifetime unfathomably corrupt and from their glass house there is no room for throwing stones at corporations.
There is plenty of room! Ever notice over the last few years how closer to unaffordable your health care insurance has become? How many small businesses can't give health insurance to their employees? It too expensive because the health care corporations have made it that way. I buy my own health care insurance; premiums went up 20% in one year. Was it because our corrupt government made that happen, or did our government "provide the means" to allow it to happen because some Senator wanted to get re-elected? Why, just follow where his or her re-election campaign money came from whether indirectly through pacts or other sources. The corruption of government came about because moneyed interests bought it. |
---> Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt
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Country
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3121 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 15:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by fb101
When I go to the mall or grocery store now, I see thousands of old people walking around living and enjoying life to some extent. Fast forward ten years and those numbers will be pared down. Many will be dead, denied care they could get right now. Many will be sitting in their houses unable to leave, and more getting around in wheelchair because they cannot get the knee surgery that would give them mobility. This is done in the name of "caring" - Bah! that's either BS or pure stupidity. Caring means about all, or it means about none.
Caring only for those chosen to be cared about is playing God. The last time I looked, only He has the right to choose who lives and dies and when.
The solution to this problem is somewhere in between. Just because we cannot come to a resolution that will benefit all citizens is not a reason to not to seek a better solution.
The health care problem does not touch those on Medicare. Those folks over 65, receive reasonable good health care with little cost to them. The health care cost burden falls on those citizens not on Medicare; the young and middle-aged people of this nation. |
---> Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 18:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Country
quote:
Originally posted by fb101
This gov't is now and has been throughout my entire lifetime unfathomably corrupt and from their glass house there is no room for throwing stones at corporations.
There is plenty of room! Ever notice over the last few years how closer to unaffordable your health care insurance has become? How many small businesses can't give health insurance to their employees? It too expensive because the health care corporations have made it that way. I buy my own health care insurance; premiums went up 20% in one year. Was it because our corrupt government made that happen, or did our government "provide the means" to allow it to happen because some Senator wanted to get re-elected? Why, just follow where his or her re-election campaign money came from whether indirectly through pacts or other sources. The corruption of government came about because moneyed interests bought it.
I'll concede the point if you add in these two corporations; NEA and AFL-CIO. |
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n/a
deleted
29 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 23:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by fb101
I will forever object to the notions of putting age descrimination into law and letting a gov't panel decide who lives and dies and when.
I've heard about supposed "death panels" but I've never seen a citation from the healthcare bill the democrats introduced. You can't make an honest conclusion without facts, so please, help me out here.
If anyone on this forum can link to the bill text (records are publicly available on government websites) and paragraph (+ your own logical reasoning) stating that the government would have the power to use healthcare to "decide who lives and dies and when" I would be enlightened. |
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twocents
Penny Collector Member
398 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 01:02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by tailwinds
When I had tendinitis in my knee, I saw four different doctors. They gave me four different diagnoses. One of them (who made an incorrect diagnosis) gave me a treatment that made the problem worse.
Another one, who came up with an absolutely crazy diagnosis, became angry when I asked him to explain why he thought I had bruised cartilage. He just raised his voice and repeated his conclusion, which is what people normally do when they can't back up their arguments. He then passed me a very expensive non-steroidal anti-inflammatory prescription, which cost $120. (It was basically a sexy form of ibuprofen.) Then he gave me a coupon from the manufacturer... wonder if he gets kickbacks?
After that experience I started distrusting doctors. A while later I wanted some routine bloodwork done (cholesterol, blood profile, iron). She wouldn't do the iron because the insurance company (her customer) wouldn't allow it so I said I would pay for the test out of pocket, and I'm glad I did. The test showed way too much iron in my blood, which can lead to liver and other severe problems, so she ordered a retest plus a liver test. The second test was also way too high, but that my liver was fine (not YET damaged). Inexplicably she didn't want to do any further investigation. She didn't even try to address the high iron in my blood, which she already stated would eventually lead to liver failure.
Doctors don't deserve the unquestioning respect they receive. A lot of them (not all) are arrogant and can't accept reality when they don't know the answer to a problem, so they invent phantom diagnoses that they can't explain when asked. These doctors (not all) would rather hurt the patient than admit they don't know something.
My father is on the board of directors at a hospital. When he and I talked about me seeing four doctors and their behavior, he said that he's seen over the years that new doctors do an excellent job, they care about their patients, and can be trusted to do the right thing. Then later they become cynical and should be avoided for your own good.
It's too bad we have this ... "system" here. It's clearly broken. When I was in France and badly sick, I remember friends and coworkers urging me to go to the hospital. I told them about my experiences in the US, and they were shocked. In France, going to the doctor means you get better.
I don't know if public healthcare would make American doctors more competent... probably not. The system is too corrupt and people here have too little control over the government to make it function.
At the end of the day, the American healthcare system I feel most confident about is as follows: good nutrition, good hygiene, good sleep, good friends, good attitude, physical activity, and intelligent choices (for example don't win a Darwin award by making youtube videos of yourself standing on a running motorcycle).
I would like to refute some of her assertions. First, doctors don't get the unquestioning respect of which you write. There is a growing amount of patient malevolence towards one's physician. This is non-productive and dangerous as it just compromises one's care. Second, doctors don't get kickbacks for medications. Compensation for services is in no way related to prescribing or not prescribing medications. Third, the insurance companies are the customers of the physician, the patients are. Physicians do not work for or in collusion with the insurance companies. Physicians generally dislike insurance companies as much as you do. Insurance companies mostly create in inmeasurable number of hoops for physicians and patients alike to jump through. Insurance companies set the rules to guarantee their bottom line. When the bottom line is in jeopardy, your copays and premiums are raised. CEOs of the largest insurance companies, which essentially function as monopolies can earn multimillion dollar salaries and can receive up to $100 million dollars in stock options per contract year. In comparison, your primary care physician earns a median income of somewhere around $180,000 per year, likely works a 70-hour work week, attended 8 years of higher education and did a minimum of three years of residency. Did I also mention that he or she likely has $150,000-$200,000 in school loans? Were you also aware that your primary care physician also works 24-hours a day when on call, which can be as often as every 3rd or 4th night. Fourth, unlike what is believed by the general public, all fees for medical services are fixed as percentages of what Medicare pays for a given service. Physicians have a limited set of codes that they must use for all billing. These codes are created by Medicare, and all other insurers fall in line with it. Contrary to popular belief, physicians are not legally able to bill more or less than what is mandated. To do so would be considered Medicare or insurance fraud. If you truly hope for reform and cost-controls, then I politely request you call or write to your congressman or congresswoman and ask to have medical tort reform included in the medical reform legislation. To date, tort reform has widely been excluded from all proprosed legislation on the table. Contrary to general public belief and misinformation, your physician's income is not the cause of your high health care costs. Your high health care costs come from overutilization of medical services by the population at large for non-value-added care, widespread failure to participate in preventive measures even after being advised to do so, the high cost of medications, and the outlandish cost of imaging studies. In large part, much of the utilization of services is dictated by the medical-legal standard of care, not the medical standard of care. Much of our nation has become a mistrusting, lawsuit happy bunch. Patients often demand services that they believe are necessary but, in fact, are not. On the rare chance that something is missed or the belief that something could have been found sooner, it has become the American way for someone to sue for $50 million dollars. We sue McDonald's if our coffee is hot. We sue, we sue, and we sue. Medically, all such behavior accomplishes is to make someone underservingly rich, and physicians are forced to practice defensive medicine, ordering very expensive tests when not indicated for liability avoidance. I assure you such defensive practices cost the system billions of dollars per year. Of course we all want competent care. Of course we want protection from negligent care, but this is just a very small portion of care provided. We have become lazy. We expect flawless care and perfect health, but we are unwilling to participate in the process of caring for ourselves. Too many would rather place the burden of their care on their physician. Why not? If it doesn't work out, we can just sue our doctors. They don't work hard for us, do they? They all get paid way too much, right? There is no reason why we should respect our doctors, let alone anyone. Unfortunately, even great, competent, and caring physicians can be destroyed by our lack of respect, lack of adherence, and subsequent frivilous lawsuits. And this hurts us all. |
Just my two cents! |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 08:25:04
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Thanks Nickelless,
Somewhere here it was posted the line by line thing on the healthcare bill, mow if I could just get that !@#! search engine to work... |
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country_bumpkin
Penny Sorter Member
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 10:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Country
It's a different world today. If 45% of the doctors want to quit, let them. They will be replaced by opportunistic doctors from abroad who would gladly have their job and take it for far lower compensation. When you go to a hospital, you will see the many doctors and nurses that have been hired from foreign lands.
Who knew a White House staffer posted to this board?
What a gob-smackingly ignorant line of reasoning. They will be replaced by foreigners? Who then does the medical work in foreign lands? US "Doctors Without Borders" - recently retired, I'm sure.
No, you what you will see is a shrinkage in the pool of doctors, and rationing in the form of long waits for major procedures. And from a government that buys $400 hammers and $500 toilet seats, even higher costs than in a private system.
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He who goes a-borrowing, goes a-sorrowing.
- Benjamin Franklin |
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n/a
deleted
29 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 12:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
Nat Hentoff's column dated Sept. 23 is pretty thought provoking, documenting some of the finer points of the Dems' health care proposal that could deny crucial treatments to Medicare patients:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Thank you Nickelless.
I've read the opinion column, but I'm unable to find links to an original source. Citing the original source (text of the bill in question) is key here for two reasons:
1. It is the most direct source available. (Always use primary evidence if it exists.)
2. On the far end of the "death camps" claim, some people are claiming the government wants to murder 100 million Americans. That's comparable to all the deaths in all of WWII! Surely you will agree that this is as serious a charge as can be made. Surely, such a serious charge warrants serious evidence. The "death camps" claim is filled with huge amounts of emotion, and as far as I've seen, zero evidence. Since the bill text is online for anyone to see, surely, a link to it, including the offending paragraph(s), plus logical reasoning explaining said paragraph(s) is the absolute least someone can do for supporting a claim of such magnitude.
Finally, the opinion column is in reference to the Baucus Bill. The "death camps" claim came about in response to alleged wording in "Obamacare." That's fine, but I was asking for evidence supporting the "death camps" claim and since they arose in reaction to alleged wording of Obama's proposal, obviously, Obama's proposal (not something else) would have to be cited.
The opinion column you posted (thank you) is interesting, and like you say, it makes some salient points. But it's hard to have an honest discussion about the facts if we're not citing the facts (bill text). Citation cuts through the misquotes, the honest mistakes, and so on. It's really the only way to go, and since it's so easy (bill text is online, and the most convincing opinion columns reference their work) there's no excuse not to make citations. If you want to discuss the Baucus Bill we can do that... but let's go off the bill text itself.
Just for example I might say, I'm opposed to HR 3650 (You must be logged in to see this link.) because SEC. 603A (a)(5) states that the program shall "support international research efforts on marine and freshwater harmful algal blooms and hypoxia, and support international information sharing, mitigation, control, and response activities." And I hate international information-sharing on algal blooms. Therefore I'm against HR 3650.
See? |
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Country
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3121 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 14:59:58
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quote:
Originally posted by country_bumpkin
quote:
Originally posted by Country
It's a different world today. If 45% of the doctors want to quit, let them. They will be replaced by opportunistic doctors from abroad who would gladly have their job and take it for far lower compensation. When you go to a hospital, you will see the many doctors and nurses that have been hired from foreign lands.
Who knew a White House staffer posted to this board?
What a gob-smackingly ignorant line of reasoning. They will be replaced by foreigners? Who then does the medical work in foreign lands? US "Doctors Without Borders" - recently retired, I'm sure.
No, you what you will see is a shrinkage in the pool of doctors, and rationing in the form of long waits for major procedures. And from a government that buys $400 hammers and $500 toilet seats, even higher costs than in a private system.
Don't play the fool again, Bumpkin.  Go to any hospital and you will see the many foreign doctors and nurses there. Hospitals hire them on government provided work visas because they can be hired cheap. Guess what fool, they don't go back to their home country because the pay is so much better for them here. They are coming to America by the thousands. That is the future for health care professionals - lower pay and more foreign nationals. Globalization is causing high paid doctors and nurses to soon be a thing of the past.
Check this out Bumpkin:
You must be logged in to see this link.
You must be logged in to see this link.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Doctors and nurses in Africa are leaving in droves because they are coming to the developed nations!  Maybe to your local community soon. |
---> Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt
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Edited by - Country on 09/28/2009 15:32:54 |
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45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting
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