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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
 Posted - 12/13/2006 : 23:26:25
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Saw this from the Associated Press today. Methinks for most of us who are collecting pennies and nickels, since probably most of us aren't worried about melting coins until everything hits the fan and "government" is a non-issue, this story won't affect us for now.
Given rising metal prices, the pennies and nickels in your pocket are
worth more melted down than their face value — and that has the
government worried.
U.S. Mint officials said Wednesday they were putting into place rules
prohibiting the melting down of 1-cent and 5-cent coins. The rules
also limit the number of coins that can be shipped out of the country.
"We are taking this action because the nation needs its coinage for
commerce. We don't want to see our pennies and nickels melted down so
a few individuals can take advantage of the American taxpayer," Mint
Director Edmund Moy said in a statement.
Officials said they had received a number of inquiries from the public
in recent months concerning the value of the metal in the coins and
whether it was legal to melt them.
The new regulations prohibit the melting of 1-cent and 5-cent coins,
with a penalty of up to five years in prison and a fine of up to
$10,000 for people convicted of violating the rule.
The rules also require that shipments of the coins out of the country
be for legitimate coinage and numismatic purposes and cap the size of
any one shipment to $100 worth of the coins.
Because of the prevailing prices of copper, zinc and nickel, the cost
of producing pennies and nickels exceeds the face value of the coins.
A nickel is 25 percent nickel and 75 percent copper. The metal in one
coin costs 6.99 cents for each 5-cent coin. When the Mint's cost of
producing the coins is added, the total cost for each nickel is 8.34
cents.
Modern pennies have 2.5 percent copper content with zinc making up the
rest of the coin. The current copper and zinc in a penny are worth
1.12 cents. The cost of production drives the cost of each penny up to
1.73 cents.
Pennies made before 1982, which are still in circulation, would be
even more lucrative to melt down because they contain 95 percent
copper and only 5 percent zinc. The metal value in those coins is 2.13
cents per coin, Mint officials said.
The new regulations are being published in the Federal Register and
will go into effect as interim rules which will not become final until
the government has a chance to consider possible modifications based
on public comments.
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On the Net:
U.S. Mint: You must be logged in to see this link.
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146 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 01:05:24
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Was just about to post this:
You must be logged in to see this link.
I'm still hoarding. Still a great investment, regardless of the legality of melting them right now. Especially with all the talk of an Amero.
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 01:49:24
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OK, maybe I'm clueless since I'm a newbie, but what's an amero? Is it our version of the euro?
Also, a friend of mine who's also hoarding pennies told me I should soak my coppers in lemon juice to remove the dirt and grime that will most easily identify the metal as coming from coins. Is she off base with this, or is this recommended? What about with zincs? |
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beercritic
Penny Pincher Member
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 06:58:12
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The US Mint can enact laws now?
Sheesh! |
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deleted
146 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 07:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
OK, maybe I'm clueless since I'm a newbie, but what's an amero? Is it our version of the euro?
A government agency was recently formed called SPP (I forget what it stands for) which was created to promote increased trade between the US, Canada, and Mexico. Their website is here: You must be logged in to see this link.
They, of course, deny that they are pushing a "North American Union" with an "Amero" currency. Others are saying it is true. There was even a resolution in Congress which, if it was voted on, would take a stand against the creation of a North American Union.
It's all rumors at this point. But it may happen in our lifetime, if it is true.
For more information:
You must be logged in to see this link.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes |
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14 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 07:25:49
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Well, you knew it had to happen. Though I tend to think of this as very much toothless.
But then... I don't plan on doing any melting, now or in the future. The "melt value" is the best measurement of intrinsic value, but in the future I think pennies and nickels will trade like junk silver does today. And when is the last time you heard of anyone (privately, that is) actually melting any of that down to extract the silver? Keeping it in an easily-recognizable form is the way to go, I would think.
Good heads-up, though. |
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26 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 07:59:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
Saw this from the Associated Press today. Methinks for most of us who are collecting pennies and nickels, since probably most of us aren't worried about melting coins until everything hits the fan and "government" is a non-issue, this story won't affect us for now.
I think it does affect us, for one it illustrates the intent and gall of the US Mint to be able to make "rules" (note, it's not a "law) without notice and outside the scope of their duties.
It had been widely predicted this would include a rule against HOARDING as well. Look for that next. Look for the secondary market to fear penneis and nickles now too (decreasing their collectable value)
quote:
The "melt value" is the best measurement of intrinsic value, but in the future I think pennies and nickels will trade like junk silver does today.
Good points, I already have many 20 pound bags of pre1983 pennies socked away for future trading (sold one recently for a decent premium)
ahhh, but if you're a Govt agent, I was just kiddin!
quote:
when is the last time you heard of anyone (privately, that is) actually melting any of that down to extract the silver? Keeping it in an easily-recognizable form is the way to go, I would think.
That's more true of SILVER than Copper. Copper has more uses and less concentrated value making melting more attractive than silver which is a money sub metal. and I know of two recyclers who melt both - I mean USED to.
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The US Mint can enact laws now?
Nope, and you can't violate a speed limit, the thing is Govt run amuck is in MANY areas, not just the Mint. There is law specifically stating you CAN melt coins actually- I'll have to go search for it again to post it here.
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The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
and a good way to debauch a currency is to inroduce more Govt FORCE and LAWS into it's handling. and to change it's metalic content,
can you say "steel pennies and steel nickles"? |
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15 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 14:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveGillie
and a good way to debauch a currency is to inroduce more Govt FORCE and LAWS into it's handling. and to change it's metalic content,
can you say "steel pennies and steel nickles"?
Yep, I think the return of the steel penny and introduction of steel nickels are next. The government has come a long way since 1943. They'll be willing to push a steel coin because they make more money on it and they're much better at ignoring the public now.. unless, of course, listening to them supports their own agendas. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 15:17:05
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I'm having a little trouble figuring a certian problem out, perhaps a forum member can assist me in finding the answer:
The US Government was unsuccessful in outlawing alcohol consumption during prohibition,
The US Government was and is unsuccessful in outlawing the use or manufacture of narcotics/drugs,
The US Government was and is unsuccessful in outlawing internet gambling or pr0nography,
The US Government was unsuccessful in outlawing the sumuggling of drugs, persons, endangered species and products made of endangered species,
Yet The US Government believes it can effectively stop the melting of coins or the smuggling of coins?
US Gub'ment-Hubris personified. |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 16:50:50
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| As far as I'm concerned, that's even better than nickel closing over $16 today. |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 17:08:25
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| Also: they say that you cannot ship more than $100 worth of pennies or nickels out of the country now - what about rare nickels or pennies worth several thousand dollars each? Or is it simply a limit on face value, in which case, what about numismatic collections of nickels with over 2000 pieces in them, or of collections of pennies (esp. wheats) with over 10,000 pieces? |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 17:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by beercritic
The US Mint can enact laws now?
Sheesh!
The Mint may already have the back up authority under law to do so when they see fit. I would like to see the law though.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 17:55:13
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| What about elongated pennies? They are no longer considered coins, so would they fall under the rule/law/edict? |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 18:54:43
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More of the same story, different web site
You must be logged in to see this link.
Rising metal prices prompt ban on melting and export of coins
The United States Mint, concerned that rising metal prices could lead to widespread recycling of pennies and nickels, has banned melting or exporting them.
The Mint is also testing dozens of cheaper alternative metal compositions in the expectation that Congress will mandate a change when it meets in the new year.
According to calculations by the Mint, the metal value of pennies, which are made of copper-coated zinc, is now more than one cent. The metal value of 5-cent coins, made from a copper-nickel blend, is up to 7 cents. Adding in the costs of manufacturing means the Mint now spends 1.73 cents for every penny and 8.74 cents for every nickel it makes.
Until 1982, pennies were made of 95 percent copper. The commodity metal value of one of those coins, which still make up a large percentage of the pennies in circulation, is 2.13 cents, according to the Mint.
If even 1 percent of the 150 billion pennies and 20 billion nickels in circulation were claimed for salvage, replacing them would cost taxpayers $43 million, the Mint estimates.
In an interview yesterday, Edmund C. Moy, director of the Mint, said officials were aware of only a few people asking if it was legal to melt coins for their metal value. Without the ban, which takes effect tomorrow, it would be.
The new ban also forbids exporting pennies or nickels in any significant quantities. While the Mint is not concerned about tourists' pocket change or numismatic collections, it wants to block wholesale export of coins to countries where recycling them for their metal content could be economically viable.
Penalties for violating the ban can include a $10,000 fine and up to five years in jail. "We want to make it clear to anyone considering this that it's not worth it," Mr. Moy said.
...........So the mint is worried about losing $43 million dollars in taxpayer's money, how many millions were lost when the Suan B Anthony dud dollar came out and ended up sitting in a vault somewhere? Face value, $898,594,452 Dud dollar coins (not including the proof coins). Meanwhile the dollar is eaten away by inflation and no one seems to care, but allow someone to profit off their coin collection, and its almost an act of treason.
I seem to recall that there was talk of trying to end hoarding of silver coins back in the 1960's, how successful was that? |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 19:23:48
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If the Mint wants to encourage the circulation of its coinage then I would suggest they stop changing the design of the coins. Every time they do people hoard them thinking that they will be collectables someday.
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If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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Tourney64
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1035 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 22:33:55
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I intend on submitting my opinion during the 30 day period this interim law is in effect. I suggest everyone else do the same if they feel strongly about it.
United States Mint Moves to Limit Exportation & Melting of Coins
Interim Rule Goes Into Effect Immediately
WASHINGTON - The United States Mint has implemented regulations to limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of one-cent (penny) and 5-cent (nickel) United States coins, to safeguard against a potential shortage of these coins in circulation. The United States Mint is soliciting public comment on the interim rule, which is being published in the Federal Register. Will Larry comment?????
Prevailing prices of copper, nickel and zinc have caused the production costs of pennies and nickels to significantly exceed their respective face values. The United States Mint also has received a steady flow of inquiries from the public over the past several months concerning the metal value of these coins and whether it is legal to melt them.
"We are taking this action because the Nation needs its coinage for commerce," said Director Ed Moy. "We don't want to see our pennies and nickels melted down so a few individuals can take advantage of the American taxpayer. Replacing these coins would be an enormous cost to taxpayers."
Specifically, the new regulations prohibit, with certain exceptions, the melting or treatment of all one-cent and 5-cent coins. The regulations also prohibit the unlicensed exportation of these coins, except that travelers may take up to $5 in these coins out of the country, and individuals may ship up to $100 in these coins out of the country in any one shipment for legitimate coinage and numismatic purposes. In all essential respects, these regulations are patterned after the Department of the Treasury's regulations prohibiting the exportation, melting, or treatment of silver coins between 1967 and 1969, and the regulations prohibiting the exportation, melting, or treatment of one-cent coins between 1974 and 1978.
The new regulations authorize a fine of not more than $10,000, or imprisonment of not more than five years, or both, against a person who knowingly violates the regulations. In addition, by law, any coins exported, melted, or treated in violation of the regulation shall be forfeited to the United States Government.
The regulations are being issued in the form of an interim rule, to be effective for a period of 120 days from the time of publication. The interim rule states that during a 30-day period from the date of publication, the public can submit written comments to the United States Mint on the regulations. Upon consideration of such comments, the Director of the United States Mint would then issue the final rule.
Those interested in providing comments to the United States Mint regarding this interim rule must submit them in writing to the Office of Chief Counsel, United States Mint, 801 9th Street, N.W., Washington D.C. 20220, by January 14, 2007. The interim rule appears on the United States Mint website at You must be logged in to see this link. <You must be logged in to see this link. The United States Mint will make public all comments it receives regarding this interim rule, and may not consider confidential any information contained in comments. |
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Tourney64
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1035 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 22:38:21
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| Correction...Commentswill be accepted in the next 30 days, and the interim law will be in effect for 120 days. |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 23:15:28
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| It's not a LAW! RTFA! |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 23:19:19
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So what does this mean?
Well, it almost certainly means a composition change. Which means you should abandon pennies and dump what you can into nickels now while you don't have to sort. By "what you can" I mean liquidate any crap performing paper investments you still cling to, and grab Real American Nickels while you can.
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Tourney64
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1035 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 05:36:13
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| RTFA... It is a regulation, with fines and prison terms. In my books that means it's a law. |
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103 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 06:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Tourney64
I intend on submitting my opinion during the 30 day period this interim law is in effect. I suggest everyone else do the same if they feel strongly about it.
IMO they will do what they want any way. They will just file your name and address in the 'Keep an eye on this guy' file."
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The above post is intended for entertainment purposes only and in no way reflect the opinions of the flesh and blood person writing the text. All writings under the screen name "copperhead" are merely a characterization of the personna created. |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 22:40:08
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| If it's a law, who's going to enforce it? The mint police? |
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479 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2006 : 01:14:23
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Canadian Nickle
If you have a smelter in your own home, no enforcement is likely.
If you are exporting tons of pennies to India or China or Korea, enforcement is likely.
I wouldn't worry about a tiny melt in your back yard.
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A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 03:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Atheist
Canadian Nickle
If you have a smelter in your own home, no enforcement is likely.
Just curious, what would it take in terms of money and equipment to set up and operate an in-home smelter? |
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44 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 12:02:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
Also, a friend of mine who's also hoarding pennies told me I should soak my coppers in lemon juice to remove the dirt and grime that will most easily identify the metal as coming from coins. Is she off base with this, or is this recommended? What about with zincs?
If I were you I would clean some of the really bad ones to make them look more appealing or to see the date better- otherwise, I think once TSHTF it will only matter what the metal content is.
A copper cleaner would be a bad idea IMHO |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 12:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
quote:
Originally posted by Atheist
Canadian Nickle
If you have a smelter in your own home, no enforcement is likely.
Just curious, what would it take in terms of money and equipment to set up and operate an in-home smelter?
You must be logged in to see this link. Of course I'm sure you wouldn't do anything illegal.
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Burn paper dollars before you melt coins. |
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Feds cracking down on melting coins
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