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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
266 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2008 : 11:49:43
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I just noticed an article in this morning's paper about the problem of copper thefts. The current suppressikon method is to require scrap dealers to get IDs and addresses from sellers. But that is not considered enough.
Now, the Arkansas Sheriff's association is trying to push through a law to require any seller of "copper and other precious metals" (emphasis mine) to obtain a permit.
Two interesting things...
1. They would thus define copper as a PM
2. Anybody selling ANY PMs would need a permit
My paranoid mind sees Big Brother sticking his hand into the till once again to get a piece of the action and monitor the movement of REAL money.
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Flbandit
Penny Collector Member
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 12:20:02
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| I'm sure if that happens Uncle Sam will get even more of our money. I'm sure permits won't be free. |
Are you throwing that out? |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
2627 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 16:22:53
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| Keep us posted about this if you can. I searched google news about it but nothing came up.........yet. |
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Mike
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 17:54:28
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I remember reading in the history books that during the early days of the Soviet Union, all people were required to turn in their silver and gold coins. And woe unto anyone caught having them afterwards. They might not have done you much good during the remainder of the Soviet era, but at least you (or your grandchildren) would have preserved some of your family wealth when the Soviet Union collapsed.
Of course it is foolishness to think anything similar could ever happen here. |
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Saul Mine
Penny Collector Member
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 18:51:21
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| There have always been various requirements on scrap dealers, pawn shops, etc. No such requirements on coin stores or precious metals brokers. And anyway it would not have much effect on hoarders. We are not in this business because we need the money. Most of us would not be inconvenienced at all to hold our hoards a few more years. |
A penny sorted is a penny earned!
Please use tinyurl.com to post links. Long links make posts hard to read. |
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Bluegill
Penny Collector Member
USA
441 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 19:54:33
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tmaring, sadly I feel your emphasis is more of a prediction than most realize. The copper thefts and resulting "permits" to combat the problem will be the excuse the PTB will use to require all PM's be registered and require permits to own.
The government will make money on these new permits which are really a tax. But the real reason for this will be that the PTB now has tabs on who owns the PM's. Now they will know who's door to knock on when confiscation time comes.
The motive and reason is the same as was used for gun registration laws. Keeping a lot of cash on hand is dangerous too. If you can't prove that you didn't or aren't using it for nefarious reasons they will take it from you, and they can trump up any bull #$%^ charge they want and you have to prove your innocense. Same with the banks reporting any large bank transactions to the IRS.
This is starting to get scary...
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“I’m fully diversified. I’ve got some under the mattress, some under the floor boards, some in the backyard.”
"Give me control over a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws." – Anselm Rothschild
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wolvesdad
Penny Collector Member
398 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 22:19:13
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Bluegill,
Two things....(last first) I don't think the reporting requirement is to the IRS, but to an office of Homeland Security(at least it is under security auspices that this requirement is made).
And the government doesn't always make money on permits. As inefficient and wasteful as the government is, just adding the positiions for issuing and enforcing the permits will likely cost all taxpayers much more than comes in through the permit fee. |
"May your percentages ever increase!" |
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Art Tatum
Penny Collector Member
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 00:07:46
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| all homeland security officers I have met have no less than 27% body fat! these guys must be paid well as they know how to eat! |
my machine is running! |
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Nickelless
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1343 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 00:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Art Tatum
all homeland security officers I have met have no less than 27% body fat! these guys must be paid well as they know how to eat!
They're just hoarding cellulite until after the crash.  |
Why hyperinflation is inevitable...and very soon:
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/292
http://www.ChrisMartenson.com |
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Saul Mine
Penny Collector Member
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 02:32:55
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quote:
Originally posted by wolvesdad
Bluegill,
Two things....(last first) I don't think the reporting requirement is to the IRS, but to an office of Homeland Security(at least it is under security auspices that this requirement is made).
And the government doesn't always make money on permits. As inefficient and wasteful as the government is, just adding the positiions for issuing and enforcing the permits will likely cost all taxpayers much more than comes in through the permit fee.
Ok, so banks are going to report account holders who buy or deposit 24 boxes of pennies a week? That's a rather large amount to sort, but it's only $600 cash value. And the citizens are already paying 50% of their incomes in taxes, any more and they will just stop playing the game. A government can't operate when citizens refuse to cooperate any more. |
A penny sorted is a penny earned!
Please use tinyurl.com to post links. Long links make posts hard to read. |
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Art Tatum
Penny Collector Member
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 12:50:08
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| my brother was one! |
my machine is running! |
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misteroman
Moderator
USA
1246 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 13:17:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Art Tatum
all homeland security officers I have met have no less than 27% body fat! these guys must be paid well as they know how to eat!
There are a few that come to the pizzeria that are in a little better shape.
D |
****Always buying wheats and Pre 82's!!!! See post or PM me for details****
http://realcent.forumco.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2014 |
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Bluegill
Penny Collector Member
USA
441 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 13:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by wolvesdad
Bluegill,
Two things....(last first) I don't think the reporting requirement is to the IRS, but to an office of Homeland Security(at least it is under security auspices that this requirement is made).
And the government doesn't always make money on permits. As inefficient and wasteful as the government is, just adding the positiions for issuing and enforcing the permits will likely cost all taxpayers much more than comes in through the permit fee.
The reporting requirement has been around long before the department of homeland security existed. They may have changed that or maybe it is to both departments, I don't know for sure.
It doesn't have to be for $10,000. It can be less. The bank can use a SAR (Special Activity Report). The reason for the initiation of a SAR can be anything. The money can have a funky smell and it could trigger a SAR. Once a SAR is filed it has to be investigated.
I have a link for the government power-point presentation on this topic.
Permits and licenses and their renewals are a major source of revenue for municipalities. It is a form of tax. In the electronic age the infrastructure is already there to print and issue new licenses/permits. Any training needed to qualify for the license/permit will of course be at the applicant's expense...
Don't think the Feds aren't aware of our passion for hoarding copper pennies, and the reasons why.
Will a pattern of buying and depositing large quantities of pennies going to trigger a SAR? Your guess is as good as mine. SAR's have to be kept on file for 5 years. If like gold in 1933, and copper pennies become illegal to own, a potential SAR could be a problem for us hoarders...
I drifted this thread off on a tangent and I apologize.
Back to the original post, Licensing/permitting/registration is definitely a start in the direction of the monitoring, and future taxation, or out right confiscation of REAL money from the subjects.
This, just like the gun laws, really bothers me a lot. The PTB could accuse us and our hoards as the reason for any copper shortages, real or not. They could enact anti hoarding laws, (don't be surprised if this applies to food as well) just like the laws against having an arsenal. They will insinuate that we are somehow someway the cause for the copper thefts. Or group us into the same peer group as the thieves, just like they tried to do with gun owners and 9/11 and terrorism in general. That will whip up the hysteria and get the sheeple to support any unconstitutional law that comes down the pike. I just saw Bush on T.V in New Orleans implying the violence on the Mexican border was because of the guns coming from America.
1984 keeps getting closer...
http://www.fincen.gov/suspiciousactivityreport.ppt#258,1,Slide%201
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“I’m fully diversified. I’ve got some under the mattress, some under the floor boards, some in the backyard.”
"Give me control over a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws." – Anselm Rothschild
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Cody8404
Penny Collector Member
USA
340 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 15:30:07
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| Also a large amount of cash on hand over $500 provides enough evidence of Drug smuggling to allow an arrest. I wonder if $500 worth of Gold, Silver or Copper meets the same requirements? |
Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
Edited by - Cody8404 on 04/22/2008 15:32:33 |
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Delawhere Jack
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 16:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Bluegill
1984 keeps getting closer...
http://www.fincen.gov/suspiciousactivityreport.ppt#258,1,Slide%201
Personally, I think we're well into "1985" already. |
"Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion...when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing...when you see your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you...when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice...you may know that your society is doomed."
Ayn Rand, from Atlas Shrugged
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the_cent_guy
Penny Pincher Member
USA
103 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 17:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Bluegill
It doesn't have to be for $10,000. It can be less. The bank can use a SAR (Special Activity Report). The reason for the initiation of a SAR can be anything. The money can have a funky smell and it could trigger a SAR. Once a SAR is filed it has to be investigated.
Banks don't use SARs for anything less than $10,000.. I took a bank secrecy test not to long ago and I definitely remember that. There is however another sort of form/notification we use that is for anything over $3,000 or seems like it is from suspicious activity. But a SAR is only for $10,000 or more in cash within a 24hr period.
EDIT: I said "an SAR" instead of "a SAR" forgive me |
"It's funny,you know me and the boys are talking about what to do with all this extra coin. And I was like.. I'm renting a clown.. Ha, and I did! Bobo here.. And uh.. I really underestimated the creepiness.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdfvWAp5GUw
Copper Cents For Sale:
http://tinyurl.com/5ec4mp |
Edited by - the_cent_guy on 04/22/2008 18:51:53 |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1848 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 18:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Cody8404
Also a large amount of cash on hand over $500 provides enough evidence of Drug smuggling to allow an arrest. I wonder if $500 worth of Gold, Silver or Copper meets the same requirements?
Not sure about that. Need to see some legal proof of that. Just because you have some cash doesn't make you a criminal. If you are pulled over and have an attitude or a "smell", as well as thousands in cash in twenty dollar bills stuffed in every pocket, THEN you are suspicious. It is all about how you carry yourself. Cash is not a good enough reason. Pretty sure my lawyer would eat that arresting officer alive....
Deal
p.s. I guess I'm a cash carrying gun toting criminal.... |
I'm so sick over pennies....I frequently trade a dime or two for the whole "take-a-penny" container if sufficient coppers exist. That will get you some odd looks. |
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New Rules for sellers of copper and PMs
