| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nickelless |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 04:11:44
I'm just sort of thinking ahead to when the melt ban is dropped regarding how much potential profit each of us might be sitting on. Not that then will necessarily reflect percentages paid now, but I thought I'd throw this out for discussion. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bluegill |
Posted - 07/02/2008 : 18:01:10
Just a few thoughts here. Why would you want to sell your Cu stash if the ban is lifted? Now you have depreciating FRN's, now what?
I thought the idea behind having the Cu (along with other PM's) is for a hedge against inflation. Convert to FRN's only what you need for an immediate purchase and keep the rest. This is assuming that TSHTF hasn't occured.
That is, unless Cu pennies can still be had at face value and you're going to buy and sort more. But I don't see that being an option for long if the ban is lifted. Jackson Metals and others will clean out the system in short order...
If SHTF has occured, I see no advantage to smelting your coins down. I can tell you that in a SHTF situation I will not accept anything but legal tender bullion. They will be a known weight and purity. Other than someone's word, I would have no way to know the weight or purity of your home grown Cu bars.
I would not accept Ag or Au bullion rounds or bars either. I don't care if they are from Engelhard, Johnson Matthey or whoever. To easy for fraud.
JMHO
|
| scooter |
Posted - 07/02/2008 : 17:21:12
Table based on July 02, 2008 closing base metal prices:
Copper $4.0796/lb 0.0930 2.68 yay!
|
| MaDeuce |
Posted - 07/02/2008 : 11:45:03
When it is no longer illegal to melt US one cent coins, volume will make all the difference in the world.
If you have less than 10,000 pounds, you'll be in the 50-70% range. If you have 40,000 or more, you can get in the 85-90% range. If you can supply on an ongoing basis, as opposed to one-time, you can get a little more.
Melting really isn't an option, due to cost. A professional melt and cast into ingots, a melt that doesn't damage the metal, will cost you in the $0.50/pound range, assuming you are a good negotiator and have a substantial quantity to melt. I don't think there's any way to do a backyard melt and come out better than simply selling the coins outright.
Probably the best bet for smaller sorters/hoarders would be to band together and get a 45,000 pound load and sell it locally (at least in the US). Dealing with companies overseas is a SOB and a great way to get completely ripped off. This wouldn't pay unless you were doing it on a regular basis and had the ability to protect yourself.
MaDeuce |
| Nickelless |
Posted - 07/02/2008 : 01:42:53
quote:
Originally posted by Kurr
Melting copper is not the easiest thing in the world. Think zinc oxide fumes. Think you have to keep it WELL OVER its melt point to pour well (keep fluid, it loses heat FAST). Think about the fact that copper oxidizes terribly. An induction furnace or some vacume induction might be required for good melts. If the ban is lifted, and I felt the need to get the prices, I'd call the refiners.
I guess the profit realization at that point would depend on your individual resources/abilities and distance needed to ship to buyers.
Thanks for the warning. I'll be sure to ask my landlady before I start smelting in my apartment.
Seriously, depending on economic conditions down the road, if the buy price is high enough--heck, we've already got a theoretical 150 percent profit on top of face value for copper pennies--then peripheral costs associated with shipping to buyers might not be an issue.
quote:
Originally posted by horgad
Here is what you are looking for:
http://www.universalwrecking.com/Sections-read-31.html
The current price for #2 scrap copper is about $2.98 a pound for small loads and $3.13 a pound for large loads. Prices will, of course, vary across the country and between scrap yards, but I would think that it is fair to say that 75% of copper spot is the theoretical scrap price of pennies (150 to the pound).
A few of the more common grades of scrap copper are:
No. 1 Copper = 99% copper or greater
No. 2 Copper = minimum 94% copper (PENNIES)
Light Copper Scrap = minimum 88% copper
Red Brass = minimum 78% copper
Refinery Brass = minimum 61.3% copper, maximum 5% iron
There are many other terms that overlap and sub-categorize the above and probably differ slightly for scrap yard to scrap yard, but the important thing is that pennies fall under No. 2 Copper.
Too bad that there is melt ban...
P.S. Thanks again for the pennies. I went through a few of them last night and they checked out A-OK.
Thanks for the copper, er, gold mine of information. I really enjoyed doing business with you as well and hope I can beat other sellers to the punch before you reach your penny limit. |
| Flbandit |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 20:48:44
I agree China is hard to deal with. Right now they have a shipping ban on Hazardous Materials in two major ports and regulation on OTR shipping due to the Olympics. The funny part is no-one knew until the ban was in place! |
| TXTim |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 14:16:41
quote:
Originally posted by legacypac
I would think that with enough volume we could load up a container and ship it to China - and acheive scrap value (absent a melt ban). Just speculation though - but worst case is I load it all up and deposit it for face. Can't do that with scrap wire.
China is cheap and hard to deal with- they also tend to change rules in the middle of the game. Our company did some work in Bejing once and before the job was finished, they wanted to renegotiate. We got 70% up front prior to mobilization. By the time it was over, we settled on tomato futures for final payment.
No more China work.
I know they have more US$$ than they know what to do with these days but they would still figure out a way to screw you. |
| Kurr |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 11:59:11
Melting copper is not the easiest thing in the world. Think zinc oxide fumes. Think you have to keep it WELL OVER its melt point to pour well (keep fluid, it loses heat FAST). Think about the fact that copper oxidizes terribly. An induction furnace or some vacume induction might be required for good melts. If the ban is lifted, and I felt the need to get the prices, I'd call the refiners.
I guess the profit realization at that point would depend on your individual resources/abilities and distance needed to ship to buyers. |
| horgad |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 11:49:19
quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
quote:
Originally posted by Gr33nday43
Not much. If you want the best prices you are going to have to melt them yourself. I'm guessing something like what people are paying on ebay type of percentage. Somewhere around 50-75% of melt price.
I'm not so sure that current conditions would necessarily be the M.O. after the melt ban is lifted and/or after the progression of hyperinflation. Think a lot farther into the future than just the current pricing and/or demand for copper. There would have to be a decent market for something like, what is it called, #2 copper that would be the type found in copper pennies? Don't think of the copper in terms of its current form as currency or in terms of its current pricing on eBay. When the melt ban is lifted, I don't think current percentages will apply.
Here is what you are looking for:
http://www.universalwrecking.com/Sections-read-31.html
The current price for #2 scrap copper is about $2.98 a pound for small loads and $3.13 a pound for large loads. Prices will, of course, vary across the country and between scrap yards, but I would think that it is fair to say that 75% of copper spot is the theoretical scrap price of pennies (150 to the pound).
A few of the more common grades of scrap copper are:
No. 1 Copper = 99% copper or greater
No. 2 Copper = minimum 94% copper (PENNIES)
Light Copper Scrap = minimum 88% copper
Red Brass = minimum 78% copper
Refinery Brass = minimum 61.3% copper, maximum 5% iron
There are many other terms that overlap and sub-categorize the above and probably differ slightly for scrap yard to scrap yard, but the important thing is that pennies fall under No. 2 Copper.
Too bad that there is melt ban...
P.S. Thanks again for the pennies. I went through a few of them last night and they checked out A-OK. |
| Nickelless |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 23:05:45
quote:
Originally posted by Gr33nday43
Not much. If you want the best prices you are going to have to melt them yourself. I'm guessing something like what people are paying on ebay type of percentage. Somewhere around 50-75% of melt price.
I'm not so sure that current conditions would necessarily be the M.O. after the melt ban is lifted and/or after the progression of hyperinflation. Think a lot farther into the future than just the current pricing and/or demand for copper. There would have to be a decent market for something like, what is it called, #2 copper that would be the type found in copper pennies? Don't think of the copper in terms of its current form as currency or in terms of its current pricing on eBay. When the melt ban is lifted, I don't think current percentages will apply. |
| legacypac |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 19:40:32
I would think that with enough volume we could load up a container and ship it to China - and acheive scrap value (absent a melt ban). Just speculation though - but worst case is I load it all up and deposit it for face. Can't do that with scrap wire. |
| Gr33nday43 |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 16:04:18
Not much. If you want the best prices you are going to have to melt them yourself. I'm guessing something like what people are paying on ebay type of percentage. Somewhere around 50-75% of melt price. |
